Sports Car Socialism?...what BS

[Nick Koske]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Obfuscation of the facts about the issue at hand does not change them.

Obfuscation of what facts? What fact/s am I obfuscating? I guess I'm not clear on that. Lets say the rule was written explicitly...couldn't we still have the discussion on whether or not we think it's right? Isn't that our right living in a free country?

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

You are an engineer are you not? When would you ever build something from the wrong data set and expect it to be correct and function properly? I would venture to guess never! Same thing applies here!

But, as an engineer I have the right to question the data to determine if it's valid or not. That's as much of being an engineer as developing something to a certain set of data. There are plenty of examples out there of things getting built to a set of data, only to find out the data was wrong or incomplete. Had said engineer questioned that set of data he might have found out the data was wrong or incomplete (see Tacoma Narrows Bridge, Challenger Explosion, etc...). Is that the engineer's fault...maybe...maybe not. Maybe the engineer was not given the complete data set, maybe the data changed halfway through the build and compromises had to be made. That's all apart of it. So would I build something to the wrong data set....Nope not knowingly. Problem is...you don't always know...what you don't know

[John Thawley]

Originally Posted by Nick Koske

Problem is...you don't always know...what you don't know

No... you NEVER know what you don't know. I'm sure of that.

You guys are doing a nice job of playing nice... probably time to agree to disagree. LOL

JT

[Nick Koske]

Embassy is building their own car...contracting pro drivers....and the funding is coming from Embassy...two car team with all pro drivers. Sure sounds like the definition of factory effort. IMO.

from Planet LeMans: http://www.planetlemans.co.uk/cmsv2/...k=view&id=3471
Two WF01s would be built by the British squad and three professional drivers would join already Warren Hughes in the line-up next year.

Warren Hughes seems to be a pro driver as well...from a prss release on his website:
British racing driver Warren Hughes has renewed his contract to drive for top British Sportscar team Embassy Racing for a further three years...A new three-year deal is his reward and a huge boost to his international career, “Three-year deals are virtually unheard of in motor-sport” said Warren, “but this shows the commitment of Embassy Racing. I'm very much at home in this team and feel very valued”.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Nick Koske

Embassy is building their own car...contracting pro drivers....and the funding is coming from Embassy...two car team with all pro drivers. Sure sounds like the definition of factory effort. IMO.

from Planet LeMans: Planetlemans.com - The Latest Endurance, Sportscar and GT Racing News! - Embassy Racing confirms Kane and Foster for 2008
Two WF01s would be built by the British squad and three professional drivers would join already Warren Hughes in the line-up next year.

Warren Hughes seems to be a pro driver as well...from a prss release on his website:
British racing driver Warren Hughes has renewed his contract to drive for top British Sportscar team Embassy Racing for a further three years...A new three-year deal is his reward and a huge boost to his international career, “Three-year deals are virtually unheard of in motor-sport” said Warren, “but this shows the commitment of Embassy Racing. I'm very much at home in this team and feel very valued”.

I find it truely amazing that you see no difference between a boutique manufacturer and one of the worlds major manufacturer's and do not acknowledge the disparity of resources available between the two!

[Nick Koske]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I find it truely amazing that you see no difference between a boutique manufacturer and one of the worlds major manufacturer's and do not acknowledge the disparity of resources available between the two!

I see the difference...Porsche has tons more resources than Embassy. But I thought it was Verschuur that was running the car? To me it sure sounds like Embassy has more resources Verschuur. I mean building two cars from scratch and racing both with all pro drivers...that's not cheap. Verschuur is just buying a pre-built customer car and just wanted two pro drivers. One thing I'm positive about is I don't think we should start handicapping cars, or teams for that matter, based on resources.

Isn't the point of gentleman drivers, in Le Mans prototypes, to race with the best of the best. Not to handicap the best so you have a chance at winning. I respect gentleman drivers but I'd take a pair of Penske Porsches and a pair of Audi R10s over a 50 car grid with no 'racing' at the sharp end or a grid full of Robertson Racings and Tracy Krohns, that's just me.

[Spyderman]

Completely agree with you Nick!
Oh and those two Penske Porsche's, have them come without the 50kg for 2008 and the 5% decrease in restrictor size that was applied in 2007, and then we will have a proper race on our hands...at most tracks.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Nick Koske

I see the difference...Porsche has tons more resources than Embassy. But I thought it was Verschuur that was running the car? To me it sure sounds like Embassy has more resources Verschuur. I mean building two cars from scratch and racing both with all pro drivers...that's not cheap. Verschuur is just buying a pre-built customer car and just wanted two pro drivers.

The Porsche is a hyper-developed car and support package in comparison, even if bought vs. built! And then you go and put in a good pro driver with a factory pro driver and you end up with a defacto 'semi-works' entry!

One thing I'm positive about is I don't think we should start handicapping cars, or teams for that matter, based on resources.

Well then you should expect to be disappointed because one of the tenets of "LM" style racing is to create a place where those with less (privateers) do not have to compete directly with those with lots (works) unless they want to. And another is to avoid exactly what is expressed in the last paragraph, 2 Porsche's and 2 Audi's foresaking all others.

Isn't the point of gentleman drivers, in Le Mans prototypes, to race with the best of the best. Not to handicap the best so you have a chance at winning. I respect gentleman drivers but I'd take a pair of Penske Porsches and a pair of Audi R10s over a 50 car grid with no 'racing' at the sharp end or a grid full of Robertson Racings and Tracy Krohns, that's just me.

That is why the class structure is set up the way it is. But first it has to be acknowledged that there is such a thing. The thing that the ACO puts forth every year, their race and affiliated series. If Verschuur or Porsche want to be king of the hill in that manner they should be in P-1!!